Week 32 - ITF M25 - Roehampton, Great Britain (hard)

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Week 32 - ITF M25 - Roehampton, Great Britain (hard)

emmsie69 · Top national player

wolf wrote:
How much is it to enter futures qualifying these days? It just seems like the tournaments are losing out on income and also denying many willing players entry by making it just a 32 qualifying draw. Would surely be a win win for everyone if they increase the size.

It just seems ridiculous when players with ITF rankings cant even get into the draw. After Freddie Riddouts entry as an alternate there are TWENTY players below him with ITF rankings that have not made it into the draw, not to mention a further SEVENTY THREE without any sort of ranking.

Even EIGHT players with ATP rankings were in the alternates here, so turned up at sign in not guaranteed to get into the tournament.

It seems like the only three ways to start a career these days is to get in as a JE, get a WC or a qWC or fly to somewhere like Tunisia where the draws are bigger. Only the latter option is available to everyone.

The smaller qualifying draws are not helped by the fact through no good reason the tournaments have to start on Sunday now, where as before they could start as early as Friday in some places.

All of this just seems to be lasting impacts from the Transition Tour. The panel that gave recommendations on how to shape the Transition Tour said they needed the these changes to a smaller qualifying draw which starts later to a) decrease overlap of events which will reduce match fixing - which makes no sense as no one would throw a semi final in order to make qualifying of the next tournament - and b) to increase rest time for players - which again I dont see how condensing a tournament increases rest time.

I get that if you were running a combined event with two 64 qualifying draws you would need a lot of courts in order to get through 32 mens and 32 womens matches - so in that case you might need to run the tournaments at two venues which would increase costs, but actually to be frank would you actually fill out a 64 draw for the women?

If they put the finals on a Sunday you could run a 8 day tournament but I suppose rain could be a bit of a killer if its on the first day of qualifying. Would just help if the ITF let you start on a Saturday.

Or they could have a mini tournament with a qWC as a prize as some tournaments already do. I'd personally make this a RR event with the matches being 3 tiebreak sets or FAST4 sets.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Sunday 6th of August 2023 01:49:23 PM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:

FQR: (q17) Ewan Moore WR 1578 vs (q10) Toby Martin WR 1286

FQR: (q2) Pierre Delage (FRA) WR 969 vs (q15) Matthew Summers WR 1535
FQR: (q4) Alexander Klintcharov (NZL) WR 1140 vs (q11) Finn Bass WR 1326
FQR: (q7) Corey Gaal (AUS) WR 1231 vs (q9) Ryan Storrie WR 1258
FQR: (q8) Emile Hudd WR 1255 vs (q13) Michael Shaw WR 1451
____________________________________________________________________________________________

QR1: (qWC) Ewen Lumsden UNR defeated (q12) Alexis Canter WR 1365 by 5 & 2

QR1: (q7) Adam Jones WR 1206 defeated (qWC) Kyran Magimay UNR by 6-3 3-6 [10-4]
QR1: (q14) Ali Habib WR 1458 defeated (ALT) Freddie Ridout UNR by 3 & 2

QR1: (q6) Sean Hodkin WR 1230 defeated (qWC) Hugo Coquelin UNR 6-1 3-6 [11-9]by

*****

FQR: Max Cunat (FRA) UNR vs (qWC) Ewen Lumsden UNR

FQR: (q7) Adam Jones WR 1206 vs (q14) Ali Habib WR 1458

FQR: (q6) Sean Hodkin WR 1230 vs Luka Petrovic UNR

pauldepstein · Social player

wolf wrote:
How much is it to enter futures qualifying these days? It just seems like the tournaments are losing out on income and also denying many willing players entry by making it just a 32 qualifying draw. Would surely be a win win for everyone if they increase the size.

It just seems ridiculous when players with ITF rankings cant even get into the draw. After Freddie Riddouts entry as an alternate there are TWENTY players below him with ITF rankings that have not made it into the draw, not to mention a further SEVENTY THREE without any sort of ranking.

...

I spectated the mens event all day today (I'll try to do a report in a separate post), and I saw Ridout's match. I think the scoreline here -- a 6-3 6-2 win for Habib -- is slightly misleading.

In reality, Habib absolutely crushed him -- Ridout is totally flattered by the official score. Habib cruised effortlessly to a 5-0 lead and then seems to have made the (possibly wise) decision to conserve energy

rather than work for a 0 and 0 victory.

So what was wrong with Ridout's play? Well, everyone makes unforced errors but here Ridout's errors seemed to arise outside of any obvious pressure. The players would be rallying steadily, trading

groundstrokes, and then suddenly Ridout would hit a foot long for no reason at all.

As a keen spectator at these events, I come to watch players at Habib's level, not Ridout's level. It's not a great spectacle to see players unable to consistently keep the ball in play.

Players at Ridout's level are (quite rightly) not usually to be found at Mens 25k qualifying but are probably more than welcome at lower-level tournaments (for example Mens 15k qualifying).

I think the fee for futures qualifying is generally $40 and I think it would be much better if this cost was met by sponsors. This would push the tournament level up even higher, but the effect would probably be

only slight. The money to pay the tournament officials must come from somewhere and, with virtually no spectators, the money is clearly scarce and it's understandable that players are having to foot some of the bill.

If the standard of play is weakened further by making it easier to get into futures qualifying, finding spectators will be even more challenging.

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 08:31:24 PM

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 08:32:14 PM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

pauldepstein wrote:
wolf wrote:
How much is it to enter futures qualifying these days? It just seems like the tournaments are losing out on income and also denying many willing players entry by making it just a 32 qualifying draw. Would surely be a win win for everyone if they increase the size.

It just seems ridiculous when players with ITF rankings cant even get into the draw. After Freddie Riddouts entry as an alternate there are TWENTY players below him with ITF rankings that have not made it into the draw, not to mention a further SEVENTY THREE without any sort of ranking.

...

I spectated the mens event all day today (I'll try to do a report in a separate post), and I saw Ridout's match. I think the scoreline here -- a 6-3 6-2 win for Habib -- is slightly misleading.
In reality, Habib absolutely crushed him -- Ridout is totally flattered by the official score. Habib cruised effortlessly to a 5-0 lead and then seems to have made the (possibly wise) decision to conserve energy
rather than work for a 0 and 0 victory.
So what was wrong with Ridout's play? Well, everyone makes unforced errors but here Ridout's errors seemed to arise outside of any obvious pressure. The players would be rallying steadily, trading
groundstrokes, and then suddenly Ridout would hit a foot long for no reason at all.
As a keen spectator at these events, I come to watch players at Habib's level, not Ridout's level. It's not a great spectacle to see players unable to consistently keep the ball in play.
Players at Ridout's level are (quite rightly) not usually to be found at Mens 25k qualifying but are probably more than welcome at lower-level tournaments (for example Mens 15k qualifying).
I think the fee for futures qualifying is generally $40 and I think it would be much better if this cost was met by sponsors. This would push the tournament level up even higher, but the effect would probably be
only slight. The money to pay the tournament officials must come from somewhere and, with virtually no spectators, the money is clearly scarce and it's understandable that players are having to foot some of the bill.
If the standard of play is weakened further by making it easier to get into futures qualifying, finding spectators will be even more challenging.

An interesting perspective, Paul. Thanks for that.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Ditto, thanks Paul, and looking forward to tomorrow's report

Just re the draw size, I prefer having 15ks or emmsie's idea of a different tournament that gives two places, say, into the 25k qualis (as happens in Portugal, and Spain, in some events)

The 15ks, I think, are essential though. A ladder only works as a ladder if you have all the rungs.

Not even sure if 64-draws are allowed but having helped out as tournament referee, I know that a large quali draw is a nightmare. You'd have real trouble getting all the umpires you need, you need double the scoring gizmos, lots more changing space, food, all the extras that go with - and heaven help if the weather plays up - you've usually no access to indoor courts because those are booked up for something else and you can't just turf people out.

And a key point is that, definitely in France and having spoken to some club presidents here too, most clubs don't want to run a tournament. Fine for the NTC, but most clubs don't see much benefit, it just annoys the members, takes up the courts, the only reason one club does it (I know) is that they get some free Wimbly tickets and even then they're not convinced it's worth it. Same goes for sports centres- you're using up the facilities that others need. So if now the members get even less of the courts, coz you've got twice the number of players, they're going to be even more annoyed and it's even less likely that the clubs will want to participate (unless they're getting real financial sweeteners, in cash or in kind i.e. even more Wimbly tickets).

pauldepstein · Social player

Stircrazy wrote:
QR1: (q1) Kalman Boyd (USA) WR 915 (= CH) vs Finn Murgett WR 1761 (CH = 1579 in January 2020)
QR1: Nicholas Jovanovski (AUS) UNR (CH = 1634 last August) vs (q10) Toby Martin WR 1286 (CH = 641 in June 2015)
QR1: (q2) Pierre Delage (FRA) WR 969 (CH = 824 in October 2019) vs (qWC) Oliver Hague UNR
QR1: Matt Ponchet (FRA) UNR (CH = 1543 last August) vs (q15) Matthew Summers WR 1535 (CH = 1444 in March)
[QR1: (q3) Guillaume Dalmasso (FRA) WR 1066 (= CH [+899 this week!]) vs Max Cunat (FRA) UNR (CH = 1580 last August)]
QR1: (qWC) Ewen Lumsden UNR (CH = 1748 in September 2016) vs (q12) Alexis Canter WR 1365 (CH = 773 in September 2019)
QR1: (q4) Alexander Klintcharov (NZL) WR 1140 (= CH) vs David Quayle WR 1670 (CH = 1626 last month)
QR1: Brandon Murphy WR 1988 (CH = 1096 last August) vs (q11) Finn Bass WR 1326 (CH = 756 in September 2018)
QR1: (q7) Adam Jones WR 1206 (CH = 1155 in April) vs (qWC) Kyran Magimay UNR
QR1: Ewan Moore WR 1578 (CH = 959 in October 2017) vs (q14) Ali Habib WR 1458 (CH = 1406 in June)
QR1: (q6) Sean Hodkin WR 1230 (CH = 995 in June) vs (qWC) Hugo Coquelin UNR
QR1: Luka Petrovic UNR vs (q16) Tiran Sanghera WR 1572 (CH = 1387 last August)
QR1: (q7) Corey Gaal (AUS) WR 1231 (CH = 1227 last month) vs Aleksandar Andic WR 1670 (CH = 1626 in June)
QR1: (qWC) Freddy Blaydes UNR vs (q9) Ryan Storrie WR 1258 (+359/CH = 626 in April 2018)
QR1: (q8) Emile Hudd WR 1255 (= CH) vs Yujiro Onuma WR 1855 (CH = 1795 last month)
QR1: Zach Stephens WR 2031 (CH = 1862 in April) vs (q13) Michael Shaw WR 1451 (CH = 1347 in April)

Paul Jubb should again be in the main draw & seeded, along with George Loffhagen, Charles Broom, Dan Cox, Dan Little, Giles Hussey, Jo Monday, Toby Samuel, Harry Wendelken, Oscar Weightman, JPJ, Anton Matusevich +, I assume, Josh Goodger, Patrick Brady & Oliver Tarvet, with Luke Simkiss as an SE.

A few comments after having spectated the day's play. I'll start with some corrections. Kalman Boyd was not in the qualifying event but Freddie Ridout was.

Finn Murgett and Kalman Boyd did not play each other.

Also, Ewan Moore and Ali Habib did not play each other.

In reality, Ali Habib beat Freddie Ridout (see my previous post) and Ewan Moore beat Finn Murgett (which I spectated).

I thoroughly enjoyed Moore -- Murgett which involved a spectacular comeback from Moore who was a set and a break behind.

Murgett's speed was amazing to me despite his loss. As far as I could tell, he might be the quickest mover on court, at this level.

I discussed this aspect with Moore after the match and he agreed with me. Another Murgett strength is his powerful volleying, particularly on the backhand.

Some general (perhaps naive comments) about mens tennis at the approx world-ranked 1500 level:

1) Key reasons why such players are as good as they are: Consistent groundstrokes with few errors and powerful backhand drives, usually double-handed.

Often, strong topspin forehand drives.

2) Key reasons why such players are not even better (world-ranked 500 and above, for example): Inability to exert pressure when hitting their second serve and players rarely

seem to possess the drop shot as an effective weapon.

Unfortunately, I became the subject of unwanted attention at this match when Murgett got a code violation for verbal abuse of myself!

Here are the events as I saw them:

1) I was totally impressed by Moore's comeback and was clapping him when he made what I thought were great shots.

Murgett suddenly reacted to my applause, although he had said nothing previously. As best as I can recall, Murgett's outburst was:

"He's clapping on every single point! Who is this guy? Do you have to clap on every point? Can't you just shush a bit?"

The umpire then immediately gave him a code violation for verbal abuse.

Murgett then complained forcefully on the grounds that he didn't swear. He said something like "What word did you hear? Tell me

what you think I said?"

I then said that I wasn't offended or upset by Murgett's comments (doing my best to try and calm the situation, I thought) and then the

umpire turned to me and said (very politely) "Could you please stay out of this?"

At these events (and at much higher-level events like Wimbledon), the code of conduct rules are enforced very inconsistently. Many umpires

will let violations slide in order to keep the match flowing.

But suppose we have a strict umpire who wants to apply the letter of the law? What should a rule-enforcing umpire do?

After having read the ITF rule book, I am certain that a rule-enforcing umpire needs to give a code violation here -- there really is no room for doubt.

The only way to avoid giving the violation is to ignore (or at least not to apply) the official rules.

Murgett simply made a wrong assumption when he assumed that "verbal abuse" necessarily includes swearing -- that isn't what the rules say.

The rule book says:

"Players shall not at any time directly or indirectly verbally abuse any official, opponent, sponsor, spectator, or other person within the precincts of the tournament site. Violation of this Section shall subject a player to a fine up to $500 for each violation. In addition, if such violation occurs during a match (including the warm-up), the player shall be penalised in accordance with the Point Penalty Schedule below. In circumstances that are flagrant and particularly injurious to the success of a tournament, or are singularly egregious, a single violation of this Section shall also constitute the Major Offence of Aggravated Behaviour and shall be subject to the additional penalties below. 178 Code of Conduct For the purposes of this Rule, verbal abuse is defined as a statement about an official, opponent, sponsor, spectator, or other person that implies dishonesty or is derogatory, insulting or otherwise abusive. "

Note the "indirectly" which makes clear that the abuse doesn't need to be particularly severe.

Murgett waded into clear-cut abuse territory when he said, referring to me, "Who is this guy?"

(It could have been "Who is this guy anyway?" which isn't exactly better.)

This clearly referred to my outsider status (I'm in a tiny minority as just a spectator and not an official or parent or competitor etc.)

and there is no way to construe this rhetorical question as anything other than "derogatory".

It certainly did not imply dishonesty. Nor was it insulting. However, the phrase "this guy" is very clearly derogatory in context.

Without the "Who is this guy?" question, he might well have avoided the warning or at least have had a decent chance of appealing it.

Final comment:

Nice to see some close matches decided by third-set tiebreaks, won by only two points.

Big shout-out to Coquelin who recovered from 9-5 down in the third-set tiebreak against the much higher-ranked Hodkin to level the match at 9-9.

Not only is Hodkin much higher-ranked but he had far more supporters -- perhaps 10 against 1 or 2 for Coquelin.

Hodkin won the last two points and the match 11-9 -- a great match from both players.

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 09:44:27 PM

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 10:02:40 PM

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 10:04:11 PM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Thanks for the report and insight Paul! I seem to recall you got in a little bother last week as well in the Adam Jones and Phoenix Weir match!

pauldepstein · Social player

JonH comes home wrote:
Thanks for the report and insight Paul! I seem to recall you got in a little bother last week as well in the Adam Jones and Phoenix Weir match!

Yes, because I'm basically being bullied because of my outsider status.

Jones, the loser, complained when we (myself and two friends) spectated his match.

And what was Jones's complaint? -- that we clapped an exciting rally won by Weir when, in Jones's opinion,

the officials made a bad line call.

I am entitled to clap players at these events when the points are decided by good shots as I judge it.

It's wrong to applaud after double faults or clear errors -- smashing the ball into the net for example.

And I have never given such inappropriate applause.

It's wrong to distract players by applauding mid-rally and I've never done this either.

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 10:10:26 PM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Another fascinating insight into the events that occur during the first round of ITF qualies, so thanks again, Paul.

Just one point: I flagged the revised schedule of Moore (q17) vs Murgett & Ridout (ALT) vs Habib after I noticed the two changes late last night, so they were not as set out in my original post.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Very interesting, Paul

Just a couple of my thoughts;

Firstly, Finn Murgett was one of the most badly-behaved kids on court when he was younger.

You might call it feisty, or you might just call it downright obnoxious, and I'm not talking about cheating, but he would argue the t*ss about anything and everything. So it does not surprise me one jot that he took umbrage when you were cheering his opponent. And mouthed off.

Secondly, although presumably he's experienced a lot different in the US now, tennis in the UK is SO quiet. Like you, I like to make my feelings known, and see no reason I shouldn't. But it can stick out like a sort thumb.

Thirdly, I wouldn't take it all personally - there are plenty of players who like to focus on something, anything, rather than their own bad play. It was a bird who flew overhead right at the wrong moment, it was the sun in their eyes, a bad linecall, a spectator,..... it's so common just to shift the blame. You see it at quite a high level too (although the good guys get over it very quickly).

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Matt Summers gets a great win over the q2 seed, France's Delage ATP 969

Ewan Moore beat Toby in a MTB too.

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

FQR: (q17) Ewan Moore WR 1581 defeated (q10) Toby Martin WR 1279 by 4-6 6-4 [10-7]

FQR: (q15) Matthew Summers WR 1536 defeated (q2) Pierre Delage (FRA) WR 970 by 3-6 6-3 [10-4] biggrin

FQR: (qWC) Ewen Lumsden UNR defeated Max Cunat (FRA) UNR by 7-6(4) 6-4

Nix · Futures level

pauldepstein wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Thanks for the report and insight Paul! I seem to recall you got in a little bother last week as well in the Adam Jones and Phoenix Weir match!
Yes, because I'm basically being bullied because of my outsider status.
Jones, the loser, complained when we (myself and two friends) spectated his match.
And what was Jones's complaint? -- that we clapped an exciting rally won by Weir when, in Jones's opinion,
the officials made a bad line call.
I am entitled to clap players at these events when the points are decided by good shots as I judge it.
It's wrong to applaud after double faults or clear errors -- smashing the ball into the net for example.
And I have never given such inappropriate applause.
It's wrong to distract players by applauding mid-rally and I've never done this either.

-- Edited by pauldepstein on Sunday 6th of August 2023 10:10:26 PM

Sounds like you were perfectly in the right Paul and they were just being grumpy because they were losing!

Like CD I find British crowds too quiet if anything. If they were in the US they'd have to put up with a lot more partisan and noisy crowds!

Btw I'm thinking of going tomorrow, is it easy to get in and is there anything I need to know?

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:
FQR: (q17) Ewan Moore WR 1581 defeated (q10) Toby Martin WR 1279 by 4-6 6-4 [10-7]
FQR: (q15) Matthew Summers WR 1536 defeated (q2) Pierre Delage (FRA) WR 970 by 3-6 6-3 [10-4]
FQR: (qWC) Ewen Lumsden UNR defeated Max Cunat (FRA) UNR by 7-6(4) 6-4

FQR: (q11) Finn Bass WR 1403 defeated (q4) Alexander Klintcharov (NZL) WR 1143 by 5 & 3 smile